I hear about the terrible state of things in the Irish Catholic Church on that Protestant homeschooling forum that I hang out on as “proof” of the terrible state of the Catholic Church in general. Now I happen to think that personal bias of the person testifying to the disintegration of the Catholic Catholic Church jaundices her view of things and I am not inclined to think that the picture presented represents an accurate portrayal. Every Irish Catholic that I have met has been deeply orthodox and devout and American Catholics everywhere consider themselves blessed to have an Irish priest as a pastor, but my testimony means nothing to the discussion at hand because I’m not there and couldn’t possible see the horrible things that have been done. Now it has never been mentioned by name specifically but some of what’s been said seems to have been shaped by the book Kathy’s Story and the movie that came out of it. Guess what? It’s not true and apparently many of the other misery memoirs are not true either. I do not for a second mean to imply that every bad story to come out of the Irish Catholic Church is not true. I suspect that they’ve had their share of true scandal and heartbreak just as we have here in the United States. Our Lord told us that there would be tares in the wheat and even He had to endure the heartbreak of being betrayed by someone He had chosen. How can we expect any different?
I don’t suppose that those** who believe a memoir such as Kathy’s Story is representative of Catholics will care much that it isn’t true. But it isn’t. And that makes me smile.
**ETA (May 29, 2008) It has been brought to my attention that the person whose opinion I erroneously believed MIGHT have been shaped by the reading of Kathy’s story has not read that book and indeed has never heard of that book or the movie. Therefore, I wish specifically to exclude her from inclusion in any way shape or form by my use of the indefinite plural pronoun ‘those’ used in this sentence. I also wish to state that I was completely erroneous in my opinion that the following statement of hers ““No, some of them are child beaters; sadistic beasts who loved to beat children till some of them died or ended up in hospital, with no questions asked. Some are cowards;who loved to terrorise and humiliate little children. Some are slave drivers; forcing orphans and young girls to work in laundries, starving them, locking them up, neglecting to provide even the most basic of care.” made in response to a statement that “not all priests are child molestors” was in ANY way shaped by the book mentioned in this blog entry. It was my mistake and I am sincerely sorry.
Thank you kindly to Standing on My Head
One last thing. If you are Catholic and Irish and would like to tell me about the great things happening in your church, you can’t believe how much I would like to hear about it. Comment here or email me at redneckwomandesigns [at] yahoo [dot] com
5 responses so far ↓
1 Claudine // May 28, 2008 at 10:07 am
I suspect that I am the person ’starring’ in the above article and I would like to point out a number of things:
Firstly, I have said time, time and time again on that homeschooling forum that I can and do only comment on the Irish Catholic Church because I live in Ireland, have been married into an Irish Catholic family for nearly 20 years and have been exposed to Irish Catholicism, its history, how it has affected Irish nationalism and culture for many years.
I have clearly pointed out again and again that I cannot comment on the Catholic Church elsewhere.
I would also like to state that I do not know the book ‘Kathy’s Story.’ I have never seen it, read it or even know what it’s about.
All my opinions are based purely on sad and tragic personal testimonies, hundreds of them, testimonies that have been hidden for decades by people too frightened to speak out against an oppressive regime that has been more interested in its own survival than truth and justice.
The suggestion that I just read some fictitious book….you really have no idea!
2 Sister Spitfire // May 29, 2008 at 9:21 am
Thank you Claudine for stopping by and adding your opinion. In fact, you will notice that I said “some of what was said SEEMS to have been shaped” I believe that means I was unsure as to all of your source material. In fact, I did remember you mentioning incidents that seemed to parallel some of the accusations made against Irish Catholics. Since your accusations presented against the Catholic Church in Ireland seldom have sources which can be independently examined it appears that BOTH of our anedoctal experiences are equally valid.
I have NEVER suggested that you “just read some fictious book.” I only was happy to discover that not every story told about what went on in institutions run by the Catholic Church was, in fact, true.
ETA: In fact it was your words that were made in response to the comment “Not all priests are child molesters” that went as follows “No, some of them are child beaters; sadistic beasts who loved to beat children till some of them died or ended up in hospital, with no questions asked. Some are cowards;who loved to terrorise and humiliate little children. Some are slave drivers; forcing orphans and young girls to work in laundries, starving them, locking them up, neglecting to provide even the most basic of care.” that led me to believe that perhaps that book and movie had some influence on your opinion.
For those who wish to see the context in which the above quote was made and judge for themselves whether I have been fair in the context of my quoting it was found in this post: https://www.sonlight-forums.com/showthread.php?p=1260210
.
3 Claudine // May 29, 2008 at 10:55 am
~~~”I don’t suppose that those who believe a memoir such as Kathy’s Story is representative of Catholics will care much that it isn’t true.”~~~
The general impression given in your blog is that I have read, believed and been influenced by a book that I do not know. The above sentence adds to that impression.
~~~”Since your accusations presented against the Catholic Church in Ireland seldom have sources which can be indenpendently examined it appears that BOTH of our anedoctal experiences are equally valid.”~~~
Well, I can’t help that you do not have access to Irish Catholic family, friends, neighbours, community and society in general. You have not listened to radio stations telephone lines being jammed when people have been given opportunity to tell their stories (can you imagine listening to old men weeping as they recounted what was done to them as little boys by ‘brothers’); nor have you read the countless letters of victims to newspapers; heard about the protest marches by victims; court cases, redress boards, counselling groups established for victims of clerical and institutional abuse. You haven’t experienced the endless exposure and revelations year after year - sometimes leading to suicides by victims and priests. Nor have you heard personal stories of beatings, molesting, vicious violence, humiliation - from a cross section of ages, characters, locations and institutions. I can’t really do much about that.
However, some of this information is accessible to you - in the same way that you ‘discovered’ and are fully convinced that ‘Kathy’s Story’ is fiction, you could do some research into true stories of which there are many. If your sources for ‘Kathy’s Story’ being untrue are internet/media/news based and you believe it, look for some child abuse articles/stories using the same means and weigh them up.
~~~~”ETA: In fact it was your words that were made in response to the comment “Not all priests are child molesters” that went as follows “No, some of them are child beaters; sadistic beasts who loved to beat children till some of them died or ended up in hospital, with no questions asked. Some are cowards;who loved to terrorise and humiliate little children. Some are slave drivers; forcing orphans and young girls to work in laundries, starving them, locking them up, neglecting to provide even the most basic of care.” that led me to believe that perhaps that book and movie had some influence on your opinion.”~~~~
I don’t need any book or movie to form my opinion. I am wise enough to not believe everything I see in a movie and to carefully consider what I read in books.
In fact, any book or movie on the subject of clerical and institutional abuse in this country - 100% accurate or not - has only served to highlight this subject and draw out of our society all the true horror stories that had been hidden for decades.
If you think that some of the things I have said are too terrible and shocking….well, so does the RCC in this country - which is why it has gone to such lengths to cover up and keep hidden what has been going on behind its doors. We still, this year, have members of the RC hierachy at the highest level, using the courts to hide the truth.
Shame on them!
4 Sister Spitfire // May 29, 2008 at 1:56 pm
~~~However, some of this information is accessible to you - in the same way that you ‘discovered’ and are fully convinced that ‘Kathy’s Story’ is fiction, you could do some research into true stories of which there are many. If your sources for ‘Kathy’s Story’ being untrue are internet/media/news based and you believe it, look for some child abuse articles/stories using the same means and weigh them up. ~~~
I have researched many such stories. I have sought out, assiduously, Irish Catholics and asked them about such stories. I have researched media reports. I have written to the Archdiocese of Dublin and the truth of what I have discovered grieves me for those in Ireland JUST as the truth of accusations made against priests and religious in the United States ALSO grieves me….including the molestation of the family member of a very dear friend of mine. I have heard the….
~~~Nor have you heard personal stories of beatings, molesting, vicious violence, humiliation - from a cross section of ages, characters, locations and institutions~~~
from those in Ireland AND in the United States.
I am not blind. Nor do I in any way wish to see those who are guilty of atrocities such as these to escape justice both earthly and eternal.
I am EQUALLY concerned however that those who are accused of such atrocities not be tried in the court of gossip, innuendo, and media propaganda and I believe it is equally justice to give those who are innoncent full opportunity to clear their name and their reputations as it is to seek justice for those who were wronged. It is not Christian charity to be concerned only with one sort of victim and not another. Those who were wronged are victims as are those who are wrongfully accused such as those named in Kathy’s story. I am concerned about good priests and sisters wrongfully accused weeping and dying in shame and calumny only to have their names cleared after they die….that happens too. Just because a few actual witches are burned in a witch hunt does not justify the use of gossip, innuendo, and propaganda to have one.
We must, as Christians, hold ourselves to the standards set forth in Sacred Scripture in Matthew 18 to form a hedge against bearing false witness and gossip and to eschew as evidence the sort of accusations made in radio call-in programmes (and the like) no matter how compelling because that venue is inappropriate scripturally and too open to abuse. We must act in accordance with scriptural principles which allow for both parties to be heard to keep the Body of Christ from further sin….the sin of bearing false witness and gossip.
5 Claudine // May 30, 2008 at 5:12 am
~~~~~~~~I have researched many such stories. I have sought out, assiduously, Irish Catholics and asked them about such stories. I have researched media reports. I have written to the Archdiocese of Dublin and the truth of what I have discovered grieves me for those in Ireland JUST as the truth of accusations made against priests and religious in the United States ALSO grieves me….including the molestation of the family member of a very dear friend of mine. I have heard the….
~~~Nor have you heard personal stories of beatings, molesting, vicious violence, humiliation - from a cross section of ages, characters, locations and institutions~~~
from those in Ireland AND in the United States.~~~~~
So this makes it somewhat baffling as to why you would think that I might have formed my opinion from one fictitious story.
~~~~~~I am EQUALLY concerned however that those who are accused of such atrocities not be tried in the court of gossip, innuendo, and media propaganda and I believe it is equally justice to give those who are innoncent full opportunity to clear their name and their reputations as it is to seek justice for those who were wronged. It is not Christian charity to be concerned only with one sort of victim and not another. Those who were wronged are victims as are those who are wrongfully accused such as those named in Kathy’s story. I am concerned about good priests and sisters wrongfully accused weeping and dying in shame and calumny only to have their names cleared after they die….that happens too. Just because a few actual witches are burned in a witch hunt does not justify the use of gossip, innuendo, and propaganda to have one.~~~~
Yes, I agree. False accusations are horrendous, distressing and wrong. But they are a drop in the ocean of true grievances, for which the RCC has agreed to pay 128 million Euro (the taxpaper footing the rest of the 1 billion Euro bill). That’s a big payout in a country with only 4 million people.
~~~~~We must, as Christians, hold ourselves to the standards set forth in Sacred Scripture in Matthew 18 to form a hedge against bearing false witness and gossip and to eschew as evidence the sort of accusations made in radio call-in programmes (and the like) no matter how compelling because that venue is inappropriate scripturally and too open to abuse. We must act in accordance with scriptural principles which allow for both parties to be heard to keep the Body of Christ from further sin….the sin of bearing false witness and gossip.~~~~~
It would have been wonderful if the RCC had actually adhered to Matthew 18 in the first place (and many other Godly commands in its dealing with children!). Matthew 18 long, long ago ceased to be an option for children and their families in dealing with abuse. One of the commonest methods used by the RCC to handle complaints brought against priests and brothers was simply to move them to a different parish, where the abuse continued.
People have resorted to radio programmes (anyone who would listen) out of sheer desperation to be heard and to be believed. The RCC shut down the Matthew 18 option by its refusing to listen, acknowledge, believe; but to continually hide, cover up and deny.
You seem to be forgetting that we are dealing with the reality of children in grave danger. People have come out publicly because they know that young lives are at risk. They have spoken publicly about their own experiences because they know that their abusers are still at large and the church has ignored their warnings.
Matthew 18 assumes that the church will deal with the sinful brother; it requires the church to step in and deal with the one who sins. And if the RCC in Ireland had followed this Scripture, many abuse cases would have been avoided.
Leave a Comment